General > Past L-E Projects
DEATH NOTE!!!! .:.Master Thread.:.
kayryn:
--- Quote from: hostghost on December 13, 2006, 12:37:51 pm ---
Anyway, I think most of your points are based on ignorance, no matter how much facts you cough up.
--- End quote ---
I would advise against calling people ignorant. It's often thought of as an insult. ¬¬
Oddly somehow related crime that's happening in England right now: five prostitues have been found dead over the last ten days in the Ipswitch area. Police are searching for a mass murderer.
Somewhat like Light's need to clean up the area, perhaps? Police were chacking for sexual abuse a few days ago, when there were only three, but haven't really reported any confirmation, or otherwise on the matter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6175669.stm
Newspapers in other countries, including papers from New York and Los Angeles are saying there's " shadow of the 'ripper'"
My dad also believes this case to be similar to that of Jack the Ripper.
Of course, it anyone tkes offence or believes this to be unsuitable for the forum, I'll delete this post...
Sindobook:
The problem with questions like this (murder, guns, death penalty, if you had a death note..., etc.) is that questions like 'is it a good thing' and 'is it a bad thing' can't be answered at the moment of knowing. A wise man knows that things that seem good at first sight can in truth be bad, and things that seem bad at first sight can in truth be good. Like in the old tale told by Lao-Tsu of a wise farmer and his neighbor.
"Once there was a farmer whose horse ran away. His neighbor came over to tell him he felt sorry for him, only to be told in return: "Who knows what is good or bad?" It was true. The next day the horse returned, bringing with it eleven wild horses it had met during its adventurous escape. The neighbor came over again, this time to congratulate the farmer on his good fortune. Only to be told once again "Who knows what is good or bad? True this time too; the next day the farmer's son tried to tame one of the wild horses and fell off, breaking his leg. His neighbor came back again one more time to express how bad he felt But for the third time all the farmer had to say was: "Who knows what is good or bad?" And once again the farmer was correct, for this time, the king of that land had started a war and the following day soldiers came by to draft young men into the army, but because of his injury the son was not taken."
Since we don't know what is good and what is bad, it is entirely possible to commit a 'good' or 'beneficial' act with 'evil or malevolent' intent and to commit an 'evil or absolutely reprehensible' act with the best intentions. In either case, does the one who committed the act deserve to be punished? (Surely not in either case.) Would punishment a good or bad thing? (Who can say.)
Oh and when it comes to death in a modern society, look at the statistics on this page:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
If you follow the links, you'll see that things like "Assualt (homocide)" is pretty far down the list, generally around #15. Politically charged issues like 'guns' are often overblown. A madman with a gun can kill 20-or-so people before he is stopped, but a madman with an explosive can kill more, and a madman with a poison or toxin can kill even more. Yet the gun is often illegal, and the latter two are legal (explosives are used for mining and demolition, and toxins are avaliable over-the-counter in supermarket and hardware store shelves). And even many places where guns are allowed often had oddball laws... in the US many states guns are legal but nunchaku, double-edged blades, brass knuckles, etc. are illegal (a gun is clearly more dangerous than any of these other archaic weapons).
xjapan:
--- Quote from: Sindobook on December 13, 2006, 06:45:54 pm ---The problem with questions like this (murder, guns, death penalty, if you had a death note..., etc.) is that questions like 'is it a good thing' and 'is it a bad thing' can't be answered at the moment of knowing.
--- End quote ---
You,ve said it Sindo. I agree with ya. Its prolly the most legit answer to the is killing good / bad thing.
You,ve also provided an excelent reference in the form of that fable.
--- Quote from: Sindobook on December 13, 2006, 06:45:54 pm ---And even many places where guns are allowed often had oddball laws... in the US many states guns are legal but nunchaku, double-edged blades, brass knuckles, etc. are illegal (a gun is clearly more dangerous than any of these other archaic weapons).
--- End quote ---
This is most probably because of the other uses for guns besides killing , hunting , sharpshooting as a sport. etc.
Therefore there are other uses for guns besides hurting people.
I doubt you could bring a numchuck and say that you,re going deer hunting
keepergirl:
--- Quote from: hostghost on December 13, 2006, 12:37:51 pm ---I see that keepergirl and I come from completely diffrent places here, when you list reasons for the death penalty I only see reasons why not to have it. And the last point is quite intresting, all though completely nonsense. The main point after catching criminals is to get them back into civilization. If you look at murdercases, how many murderes actually commit another one? A tiny persentage, and they are mostly part of organized crime. Which i said earlier is something to strike hard down on.
Anyway, I think most of your points are based on ignorance, no matter how much facts you cough up. I don't think I will ever understand the death penalty, even if someone would rape my girlfriend I would not want to see them dead. Better with a lifetime of regret than a few years of martyrdom.
This has gotten quite off topic so I will let this be for now. We could talk more on IRC if you want ;)
--- End quote ---
Did you really think I would let this die with your post in which you imply I'm ignorant?
You and I do come from very different places, geographically, culturally, and mentally.
As for your belief that our main goal in catching criminals is to rehabilitate them and release them, I completely disagree (and this is the root of our entire disagreement). I feel the main goal in catching criminals should be to make society safer for the innocent people. Rehabilitation as a goal has continually failed in US prisons, which is a cause of repeated offenses. Some people can NEVER fit into a civilized society. It's something I said earlier and I still believe it. And yet, these people are allowed back on to the streets to commit the crimes, and more innocent lives are shattered.
It is true that murder has a lower repeated offense rate than most other crimes, even in the US. This is simply because (in the US) most murderers get life imprisonment, so they are kept out of society.
Regarding your 'lifetime of regret' line, do you really think most people who commit crimes worth the death penalty feel regret? I can assure you that most do not. Reading some last lines before death from criminals really demonstrates how cold to the core these people are.
It appears, hostghost, that you and I are just too different in our fundamental beliefs to ever come close to agreeing on this topic. It seems to me that you are an idealist, and hold optimistic views regarding other people. I, on the other hand, am a realist for the most part. I think our (the US's) penal system is too lax on people who commit felonies and on people who are repeat offenders. I also feel the entire system needs an overhaul, but I know that that will probably never happen. Regardless, I think we should just agree to disagree here. Much like the offer given to me, if you would like to discuss this topic more, feel free to PM me on IRC.
--- Quote from: Sindobook on December 13, 2006, 06:45:54 pm ---If you follow the links, you'll see that things like "Assualt (homocide)" is pretty far down the list, generally around #15. Politically charged issues like 'guns' are often overblown. A madman with a gun can kill 20-or-so people before he is stopped, but a madman with an explosive can kill more, and a madman with a poison or toxin can kill even more. Yet the gun is often illegal, and the latter two are legal (explosives are used for mining and demolition, and toxins are avaliable over-the-counter in supermarket and hardware store shelves). And even many places where guns are allowed often had oddball laws... in the US many states guns are legal but nunchaku, double-edged blades, brass knuckles, etc. are illegal (a gun is clearly more dangerous than any of these other archaic weapons).
--- End quote ---
I agree 100% with all this. These issues are often overblown, particularly gun control. That's actually why I did not want this discussion to turn into a debate about guns, because there is no conclusive evidence for either side of the argument (although the same can probably be said about the death penalty).
twik:
--- Quote from: Sindobook on December 13, 2006, 06:45:54 pm ---"Once there was a farmer whose horse ran away. His neighbor came over to tell him he felt sorry for him, only to be told in return: "Who knows what is good or bad?" It was true. The next day the horse returned, bringing with it eleven wild horses it had met during its adventurous escape. The neighbor came over again, this time to congratulate the farmer on his good fortune. Only to be told once again "Who knows what is good or bad? True this time too; the next day the farmer's son tried to tame one of the wild horses and fell off, breaking his leg. His neighbor came back again one more time to express how bad he felt But for the third time all the farmer had to say was: "Who knows what is good or bad?" And once again the farmer was correct, for this time, the king of that land had started a war and the following day soldiers came by to draft young men into the army, but because of his injury the son was not taken."
--- End quote ---
Interesting tale, but it doesn't quite fit. The discussion is about good vs evil. In this case, what you refer to as "good" or "bad" could be more accurately translated as "fortune" or "misfortune." I challenge anyone to assign a value of inherent evilness to a horse running away or a kid breaking his leg while riding. On the other hand, using the Death Note (<= feeble attempt at staying on topic) to commit murder strikes me as belonging to another category. Still, it's a great story that gives us something to remember when we are faced with adversity. Thanks for posting it.
--- Quote from: hostghost on December 13, 2006, 12:37:51 pm ---Anyway, I think most of your points are based on ignorance, no matter how much facts you cough up.
--- End quote ---
Whoa, bad form there buddy. Let's keep it civil.
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