Topic: Initial D 4th Stage comments... - Archive Topic (Locked)

[xiaochefy]

i am still waiting for initial-d to come out man so long haix

[Bukkake-Kun]

I would be curious to find out how many of the native English speakers that find fault with this woman's English singing pronounce their English perfectly.  I would surmise very few.  I know for a fact that in my nearly 24 years of speaking the language I do NOT have perfect pronounciation and even at times spelling and punctuation.  Accents, lisps, drawls and other such speech variances change from person to person and region to region.  And that's just native speakers.  This woman's primary language is Japanese, a language sharing extremely little with the English language.  I'm sure those whose primary language is not english can attest that part of your native tongue stays with you in every language you speak.  My father, as an example, moved to the States from overseas in the 1970s able to speak some but hardly perfect english.  After more than 30 years of speaking it every day he still retains some small part of his native tongue pronounciation of letters and words.  For her to retain some of her Japanese speaking habits even while speaking in English would be only natural.

She is a professional singer, is it too much to ask that she memorizes the sound of a few words? Is it that hard? You don't even need to attend a class, just your brain and a few minutes of practice should suffice.

Nevermind the fact that sometimes the lyrics themselves (with the addition of random english words) make little sense. Are we supposed to admire and praise that?

It seems some Japanese have this inferiority complex towards the Americans. So much so that they feel the need to insert mispronounced english words into their otherwise fine Japanese lyrics to sound 'cool'. What's wrong with authentic Japanese culture? I find it very interesting. And personally, I find that songs that are sung in Japanese are more beautiful than songs sung in French.

I live in a predominantly French area, and while I do not listen everyday to French music, I have never heard my compatriots put in a cheap mix of mispronounced English to sound more hip. They are too proud of their own language.

What I also find amusing is that some of the same people criticizing a Japanese woman's english do not have a firm grasp of the language in the first place.  In just the few posts between this and my last there are several instances of people using incorrect words and/or spelling.  Spelling is forgivable as typos do indeed happen, but to use a completely wrong word while mocking pronounciations and speaking to "QC" is, for lack of a better word, rather laughable.  To me, if one is going to quality check something one should have some mastery of said thing.  At least that is what makes sense to me.

Feel free to point out my spelling mistakes. Unlike others, I am not averse to learning.

Edit: I have finally understood how to spell mimic :)
I thought I saw it spelled with a K in Hordes of the Underdark, but turns out it wasn't.

What I am getting at here is take in some understanding of the situation and don't ardently criticize something so minor given the facts of that sitution.  Even those mistakes that I ahve pointed out are really no big deal at all.  As long as you can be understood or your intended meaning interpreted from what you have said then you have succeeded in your communication.

But in some cases I can't understand :)
YOU try to understand Obsession from See-Saw :)

Here is a recap of a real-life situation :

me: Let's have Xavier listen to Obsession and see how many words he can make out.

B: OK.

[music starts playing]

Xavier: Rewind. Rewind. Rewind Again. Wait, did she just say snore?

B: Nope.

Xavier: ...

[Music keeps playing]

Xavier: Oh she's just humming now.

B: No, those are supposed to be words too.


Some things are indeed minor and understandable, like your 2 typos in the previous quote. Despite them, I still know that you can spell situation and have correctly. But personally, I find the horrible mispronounciation in a professional work to be ridiculous, as well as the addition of foreign words for the purpose to sound cool.

Try to ease up and just enjoy things for what they are.

An example of people that accept to wallow in mediocrity. (Just to make myself clear, I was talking about the engrish singers, not you.)

By the way, there is a whole website dedicated to laughing at English mispronounciation:

engrish.com

[Bukkake-Kun]

i am still waiting for initial-d to come out man so long haix

Maybe if you volunteered to be a distributor (in the case that Live-Evil is still looking for some), you might have the chance to view the eps earlier.

If you really need something to kill time, there is a website containing translations of Chinese martial arts literature, if you are into anime like Condor Heroes. I would recommend Sentimental Swordsman Ruthless Sword (Xiao Li Fei Dao), which in my opinion is much more interesting that Condor Heroes.

http://www.spcnet.tv/gulong/glreadingroom.shtml

Most translations do not have the same level of quality as Live-Evil's. It is understandable since they work alone. But the texts are still very well translated, especially considering that they are doing so on their free time.

[Yoten]

I love how you people (and by that I mean mostly jizz-mopper there) are expecting a JAPANESE singer, singing a (mostly) JAPANESE song, for a JAPANESE show, to have perfect English pronunciation without any kind of accent. Why the hell SHOULD she do it "perfectly"? The English lyrics are just there to sound cool, not for your personal benefit. That's EXACTLY how you pronounce the English words "fire", "ecstasy", and whatnot with a Japanese accent.

Showing how you're all missing the point, if she pronounced everything with "perfect" pronunciation, there's a good chance that those English lyrics would be HARDER to understand for the Japanese viewers. It's a Japanese show, and Japanese viewers are all they care about. If you're going to bitch and moan just because she doesn't sound like Bobby Bumfuck from Oregon then please keep the whining to your livejournals. Sheesh.

[Bukkake-Kun]

I love how you people (and by that I mean mostly jizz-mopper there) are expecting a JAPANESE singer, singing a (mostly) JAPANESE song, for a JAPANESE show, to have perfect English pronunciation without any kind of accent.

If you're fluent in Japanese and work for a Japanese show, then sing in Japanese.

Why the hell SHOULD she do it "perfectly"?

I would expect no less from a professional. If the people that work at Live-Evil can do a nearly flawless translation while working only during their free time, shouldn't a singer achieve a comparable level of excellence, especially while working full-time?

The English lyrics are just there to sound cool, not for your personal benefit.

Some people might find it cool, but I find mispronounced words that do not make sense by being there absurd.

Yeah, let's be copy the Americans, and do it
That's EXACTLY how you pronounce the English words "fire", "ecstasy", and whatnot with a Japanese accent.

Words spoken so poorly can't really be considered english anymore  :)

Showing how you're all missing the point, if she pronounced everything with "perfect" pronunciation, there's a good chance that those English lyrics would be HARDER to understand for the Japanese viewers.

You are absolutely correct. The reason for that is because the fans have been learning bad engrish from their idols for years. And I'm not just talking about the pronunciation, the logic and structure of their songs are also bad.

If you're going to bitch and moan just because she doesn't sound like Bobby Bumfuck from Oregon then please keep the whining to your livejournals.Sheesh.

If you feel that her superb music is worth defending, go ahead. I was just giving legitimate arguments why there are people, not just me, who find engrish music to be silly. Currently, such people are numerous enough to fill a very large forum, but I'm sure their numbers would soar if Japanese artists decided to bring their engrish goodness to MTV and the mainstream radio :)

[Yoten]

If you're fluent in Japanese and work for a Japanese show, then sing in Japanese.

That would be the point, yes. Yet, who's to say that Japanese music can only use the Japanese language? You seem to be awfully stuck up on homogeneity, and that's completely wrong when it comes to Japanese culture. Despite some of its aspects that seem to point to such, incorporating aspects of foreign culture, including its language, has been central to the development of Japanese culture since the Meiji Revolution. A lot of the newer inventions, like say "chocolate", don't have a native word for it. The Japanese just use the English word "chocolate" for it. And since English is taught in every Japanese middle and high schools, it's expected that any Japanese adult will know English words and phrases here and there and that's why English words in Japanese songs are more prevalent.

I would expect no less from a professional. If the people that work at Live-Evil can do a nearly flawless translation while working only during their free time, shouldn't a singer achieve a comparable level of excellence, especially while working full-time?

I think she's doing an excellent job, myself. What you're failing to grasp is that speaking with an accent does NOT make it "wrong". Pronounciations aren't something you learn from a book... it's a carry-over from whatever language you first learn to speak. For someone who speaks multiple languages, you're pretty negative on something that's a natural product of multilingualism.

Some people might find it cool, but I find mispronounced words that do not make sense by being there absurd.

Ah, here's the problem: You seem to think that you matter. Trust me, you don't. We all have our own tastes, sure, but taking yours on a crusade and using it to lambaste someone, especially in light of things like reason and reality, is pretty dumb.

You are absolutely correct. The reason for that is because the fans have been learning bad engrish from their idols for years. And I'm not just talking about the pronunciation, the logic and structure of their songs are also bad.

Oh sure, the structure/logic of English in mainstream Japanese culture is often pretty bad (like the stuff on engrish.com), but reaching 100% perfect pronunciation and intonation between languages as different as English and Japanese is extremely difficult. I know I sure as hell speak Japanese with a heavy accent, and like I've said before -- an accent doesn't make it WRONG. Once again, that "bad pronunciation" that you keep harping on is nothing more than English with a Japanese accent born from their language system.

Oh, and the use of English words in Japanese music isn't always as random as you think. In many cases, even in Dogfight itself, it meshes and flows very well with the Japanese to form something that makes perfect sense.

If you feel that her superb music is worth defending, go ahead. I was just giving legitimate arguments why there are people, not just me, who find engrish music to be silly. Currently, such people are numerous enough to fill a very large forum, but I'm sure their numbers would soar if Japanese artists decided to bring their engrish goodness to MTV and the mainstream radio

Your arguments seem pretty biased, actually, in that you expect everyone that speaks another language to speak perfectly and without even the slightest accent. It's just not realistic, regardless of whether someone's a "professional" or not. Oh, and whoop-de-doo about the "very large forum"... you can find forums equally as large about child pornography.  

[Bukkake-Kun]

That would be the point, yes. Yet, who's to say that Japanese music can only use the Japanese language? You seem to be awfully stuck up on homogeneity, and that's completely wrong when it comes to Japanese culture.

I have always heard that Japan is one of the most homogenous societies in the world, as opposed to America which is often referred to as a melting pot.

I wouldn't mind that much if the added english words didn't sound so horribly different from their original sources. the Japanese are free to use any mix of language they want in their songs, but I think a song is more interesting when ALL the words are sung correctly. The opposite just sounds stupid.

Despite some of its aspects that seem to point to such, incorporating aspects of foreign culture, including its language, has been central to the development of Japanese culture since the Meiji Revolution. A lot of the newer inventions, like say "chocolate", don't have a native word for it. The Japanese just use the English word "chocolate" for it. And since English is taught in every Japanese middle and high schools, it's expected that any Japanese adult will know English words and phrases here and there and that's why English words in Japanese songs are more prevalent.

If you're going to call it english, then say the word the same way you heard it from the people who taught it to you. Otherwise it becomes a japanized word and can no longer be considered as english. For example, the english word city comes from the french word cité. City is less different from cité than astasi is different from ecstacy, or snore from know. However, city is not a french word.

I think she's doing an excellent job, myself. What you're failing to grasp is that speaking with an accent does NOT make it "wrong". Pronounciations aren't something you learn from a book... it's a carry-over from whatever language you first learn to speak. For someone who speaks multiple languages, you're pretty negative on something that's a natural product of multilingualism.

When the accent distorts a word to the point that the literal representation of the accentuated word is different from the literal representation of the original word, it becomes wrong.

Ah, here's the problem: You seem to think that you matter. Trust me, you don't. We all have our own tastes, sure, but taking yours on a crusade and using it to lambaste someone, especially in light of things like reason and reality, is pretty dumb.

Lambaste, nice word, 1st time I've heard it and I'll certainly remember it

And yeah, I don't matter to people that I have no interest in buying music CDs from.

As for me, it's the fact that people appreciate the poorly sung and absurd engrish music that I find silly. And the reality is that some of these singers cannot speak correct english, yet insist on adding it to their songs.

Oh sure, the structure/logic of English in mainstream Japanese culture is often pretty bad (like the stuff on engrish.com), but reaching 100% perfect pronunciation and intonation between languages as different as English and Japanese is extremely difficult.

Not as difficult as you think. My old supervisor was Russian, yet the way he says hello in Cantonese is very similar to the way my friend says it. Same goes for an Algerian colleague I had.

One time I was saying rice in Filipino to my friend (rice is bigas in Filipino). I was pronouncing it big-ass  the 1st time. He corrected me, telling me not to put too much emphasis on the g, after a few tries I got it right.

Oh, and the use of English words in Japanese music isn't always as random as you think. In many cases, even in Dogfight itself, it meshes and flows very well with the Japanese to form something that makes perfect sense.

"You're big time gambler"

"Rocket dance (DOGFIGHT)"

In Move's defense, the male singer is a good english singer. Beat of the Rising Sun was nice, plus all the lyrics seem to make sense.

However, I saw the clip of another song called "supersonic dance", which didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

And of course, this:

http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/hacksign/obsession.htm

and especially this:

"I want to throw my brain of a half,
I want to throw my brain of a half,
wanna throw it away."

Brain song by the pees

[Bukkake-Kun]

Your arguments seem pretty biased, actually, in that you expect everyone that speaks another language to speak perfectly and without even the slightest accent. It's just not realistic, regardless of whether someone's a "professional" or not. Oh, and whoop-de-doo about the "very large forum"... you can find forums equally as large about child pornography.  

It's possible, Utada Hikaru is one of them, and there are others as well. I don't know the following singers but others say they have good pronounciation: Ken Hirai, tatsuro yamashita. It's not that difficult, and certainly not unrealistic, given my own experiences.

It's just not realistic, regardless of whether someone's a "professional" or not. Oh, and whoop-de-doo about the "very large forum"... you can find forums equally as large about child pornography.  

Whether or not people are into child porn has nothing to do with the fact that there is a lot of people out there laughing at the Japanese's horrible pronounciation of english. And, like I said earlier, there would certainly be more laughs if the engrish artists had more exposure in the west.

[Evolution]

I can accept that you are annoyed about the pronunciation of certain words but I think you are being a little harsh.
After a certain age it gets harder and harder to pick up new languages. It also becomes harder to learn new pronunciations and get rid of ingrained accents. Engrish exists because they just plain do not have the 'l' sound and the closest equivalent sound to make is 'r'??. English is apparently one of the harder languages to learn because of all the rules for different pronunciation and spelling that exist, (although America removed some of the spelling rules eg colour vs color)
I really don't think that her singing is that bad. The only Engrish song that annoys me is the Sonic anime song "look alike"
http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/sonicthehedgehog/lookalike.htm
This is an example of using English because it may sound good but makes no sense what so ever in some parts.

Learning another language is made harder or easier depending on how often you are exposed to that language and correct pronunciation. What really matters is that sense can be made out of lyrics and that it sounds good. If it is so Engrish it does not make sense then that is another issue. Yeah the Hack Sign theme song is really Engrish but at least is sounds good
She probably does not have much impetus to fix up her pronunciation, it would require a rather large effort. It really depends what sort of pronunciation problem it is, eg Xiao and Shiao is different from English and Engrish.
English is my first language and the only other languages I have learnt are European languages, Italian and German, which are quite compatible, but even then my Australian accent affected what I said, not as much for Italian because I was younger.
You can pretty much tell how old somebody was when they learned a language by their pronunciation but their are other factors. Basically I would say that after 12 years of age it becomes increasingly difficult to learn a new language perfectly.
Within a country  also the pronunciation can be very different depending on the region where you live, in Australia you can tell sometimes the exact suburb someone lives in, eg there was a lady on television who said, "he hurted my boy". That is just one example I can think of right now.

[Bukkake-Kun]

After a certain age it gets harder and harder to pick up new languages.

Completely agree with that. When I was in primary school I've heard people say that they did a research and that kids that took multilingual courses at a very early age can master 7 or 8 different tongues. Kids that start 1 year later can learn 1 less, etc.

English is apparently one of the harder languages to learn because of all the rules for different pronunciation and spelling that exist, (although America removed some of the spelling rules  eg colour vs color)

Learning english is a cakewalk compared to learning French . 4 different accents é è ê ë, words have a sex, either masculin or feminin, and articles also have a sex. There is a ton of grammatical rules, I don't remember all of them, I just write by instinct and it works fine for me.

The only Engrish song that annoys me is the Sonic anime song "look alike"
http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/sonicthehedgehog/lookalike.htm

Yes I've heard other people label that song as bad.

Learning another language is made harder or easier depending on how often you are exposed to that language and correct pronunciation.

Yeah, it helps if you have friends that know the language. Right now, I think the most difficult language that I could learn is Chinese, mainly because every word has their own character, although some words are a combinations of other characters. But I'm fairly confident that I could handle the pronunciations pretty well. I'll test it out next time I talk to my Cantonese or Mandarin friends. Memorizing a sound and reciting it isn't nearly as hard as memorizing a character and associating a meaning to it.

Yeah the Hack Sign theme song is really Engrish but at least is sounds good

 

Some like it, others abhor it. The friend that tried to identify the words was not familiar with anime and labeled the song as garbage.

The friend that introduced me to that song wasn't into it at 1st because of the "decrepit" pronounciation. But as he watched the series the song stuck in his head, and he ended up listening to it for hours straight. Considering that this person is writing his 1st book and pays a lot of attention to his style, it is quite a paradox He considers the Japanese pronounciations to be cute, even though he thinks that they are wrong.

She probably does not have much impetus to fix up her pronunciation, it would require a rather large effort.

I've heard that all of the other english songs found in hack sign were sung by western performers. Personally I feel that they should expand on that Outsourcing can be a good thing.

Within a country  also the pronunciation can be very different depending on the region where you live, in Australia you can tell sometimes the exact suburb someone lives in, eg there was a lady on television who said, "he hurted my boy". That is just one example I can think of right now.

The pronounciation might be slightly different, but not nearly as different as some of the things I'm hearing in the songs. Although Australian English sounds different from what I'm used to, I consider it to be proper english as opposed to English spoken with a heavy French Canadian accent. An American that does not know any French will probably have an easier time speaking with an Australian or a British than a Quebecer. As for the hurted expression, I don't think it would be considered grammatically correct if someone were to write it down.

But anyway, although the pronounciation is poor, and sometimes the lyrics do not make sense, the songs sell, at least in Japan, so from a business perspective, the only one that really matters, engrish is useful.

[GodZilla168]

I just want to say many many thanks to live evil with the hard work that they do at translating the anime especially Initial D 4th Stage.

I know the show was released last week or so, any idea on when you guys are ready to post 5 and 6.  I know it takes time to translate and get everything right. Just curious that is all.  Because I don't have access to the internet all the time so I wanted to know when it comes out so I can grab it.

THanks

[Evolution]

Yes but with Languages such as English there is no real constant rule there are exceptions and sub rules everywhere.

*I thought I would edit to note that this has nothing to do with anything*
its like what I wrote on my friend's birthday card, "Merry year of passing day. May this year be of constant value to you"

[xiaochefy]

oh thats cool

[crazysmoke]

well if i look at it this way its easier for ppl who know a latin based language to learn another latin based language.

its different for eastern cultures cuz the languages have nuthin in common at all. even the sounds and pronuncing of the words are different. but it easier for them to learn languages similar to them.

i hope in the future the world will have 1 main language or have universal translators.

oh yea the english words are there for fun. cuz it doesn't even fit in to the song. also the words don't flow with the song if the are pronunced correctly i think cuz the music is written for japanese words its like how dubs suck.
it be crazy hard for an english speaker to sing japanese words in a song too.

other then that i don't mind the intro. its all good were just over analyzing the situation.

[Bukkake-Kun]

well if i look at it this way its easier for ppl who know a latin based language to learn another latin based language.

True.

its different for eastern cultures cuz the languages have nuthin in common at all. even the sounds and pronuncing of the words are different. but it easier for them to learn languages similar to them.

 

The Eastern and western languages may come from different roots, but it is still possible for a single person to master both. I have 2 uncles who came to Canada when they were in their 20s, and both speak French without an accent.

if the are pronunced correctly i think cuz the music is written for japanese words its like how dubs suck.

Some of the worst engrish songs were written entirely in english. Take Hack Sign's Obsession and Sonic's Lookalike for example.

it be crazy hard for an english speaker to sing japanese words in a song too.

Correct. That is why there are no westerners releasing Japanese music CDs. Something like that might happen someday, but I'm fairly certain that such an artist would have mastered Japanese pronounciation beforehand.