Topic: Initial D 4th Stage comments... - Archive Topic (Locked)

[Brokenimage0]

Yeah you got a point with the small shot of nitrous. Hell i would just get a supercharger if i could find one to fit personally but thats just me=P

[hellbent]

First off, non-rally fans shouldnt talk about things they dont know,and they do care how much sound the ALS system can muster and even pollution, remeber they travel in Public roads, I remember last season the brit police stopped Gronholm for using Illegal tires (not illegal for WRC, just public)luckly some tightass came through with the papers explaining things. the FIA even regulates the sound coming from the exhaust. Secondaly, its true they dont change engines after every stage. But remember these are PRO RACE CARS, the engines are built from a blueprint, to the person who said smaller turbos, the rally car turbos are small. in fact their the same size as stock, only diff is thier ball-bearing and race turbos. Guess most u didnt know that HP is regulated to no more than 300BHP, as rally uses air restrictors to keep all cars 290-299BHP. Another thing u probably didnt know, rally cars are automatic, yes its true people, the highest Rally series uses auto cars, but remember that the gearing and shift points are tuned to the absulute perfection.
On a last note, This season, ALS has been banned by the FIA, so now all cars use EGR, not sure on this though, Havent read the new rules yet, so I could be wrong.

Anyway back to the game, in the first stage, how the hell does Ryo calculates the R32 HP by just the exhaust note and straight line accel, thats just impossible. I mean u have to take weight and sizes of wheels into considiration. and finding HP through exhaust is just stupid,  a exhaust can sound quite or loud, but it cant give in accurate HP number. thats something a stupid honda rice wanker would say.

again, sry for long post

[Just_J]

First off, non-rally fans shouldnt talk about things they dont know,and they do care how much sound the ALS system can muster and even pollution, remeber they travel in Public roads, I remember last season the brit police stopped Gronholm for using Illegal tires (not illegal for WRC, just public)luckly some tightass came through with the papers explaining things. the FIA even regulates the sound coming from the exhaust. Secondaly, its true they dont change engines after every stage. But remember these are PRO RACE CARS, the engines are built from a blueprint, to the person who said smaller turbos, the rally car turbos are small. in fact their the same size as stock, only diff is thier ball-bearing and race turbos. Guess most u didnt know that HP is regulated to no more than 300BHP, as rally uses air restrictors to keep all cars 290-299BHP. Another thing u probably didnt know, rally cars are automatic, yes its true people, the highest Rally series uses auto cars, but remember that the gearing and shift points are tuned to the absulute perfection.
On a last note, This season, ALS has been banned by the FIA, so now all cars use EGR, not sure on this though, Havent read the new rules yet, so I could be wrong.

Few things:

Correct, the engines cannot be rebuilt after each stage, nor can they between each rally. New for 2005, a single engine must last 2 events, and cannot be opened between events. If an engine must be changed, a penalty is incurred. If the car retires from an event, they are free to change the engine for the next event.

The turbos are NOT the same size as stock. They are a bit larger. It would benifit them to run the largest, most efficient turbo possible, because lag is a non issue with the ALS. We're talking about cars that produce 40-50 pounds of boost off idle.

That's under the hood of the Impreza WRC 2005, you can see the turbo is pretty big.

The 300hp is just a guess. The most important number is the torque, and the power under the curve. Rally cars produce stupid amounts of torque at low RPMs, the "low" HP number is because the turbo runs out of breath, due to the restricter, at high RPM. To prevent the turbo from crapping out, they taper the boost (the Impreza drops to around 9psi at redline). You'll never find a WRC car's torque curve online, so it's impossible for us to calculate it's horsepower.

Rally cars ARE NOT AUTOMATIC!
All the WRC cars run sequential manual transmissions that are hydrolically controlled, with 1 exception. The Impreza's tranny is not sequential, it's electrohydrolic, and even though it does use a paddle to shift, it still maintains the H pattern. Meaning the driver can skip gears, and flick a switch to go into reverse, instead of paddling down through all the gears. Also, I can't think of a single rally car class where they use autos. I can tell you Group N, and US Pro rally cars are manuals.

ALS has not been banned.

[Mirage]

Hellbent one thing - the rally cars are semi-automatic (at least in WRC which is the highest class of rally) they are...what that means is they have paddle shifters like you can find in newer "sports cars".  

But the cars still have a functioning clutch and manual shifter and in the event the tranny gets fubared mid stage they switch to full manual on the fly...its pretty cool the co-driver takes the handle off the e-brake and screws it in place for the shifter...bam standard transmission

[Elchfaenger]

Well, i was just trying to say that they dont have to care about restrictions for normal cars in terms of pollution and noise etc. you said it yourself: rally live is loud, ALS would be illegal, gronholm was stopped for racing with illegal parts.
they race on public roads, yes, but remember: they are closed for traffic

i dont want to argue with you since i really dont know much about rally rules and can only talk about the land i live in, but there is no way a rally car could pass an emission test here or even the security check since it has no catalytic converter and stuff

[Just_J]

Because an ALS system destroys the engine,When the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal the ignition  timing is altered with sometimes 40° or more of delay (retard) and the intake air and fuel supply mixture is made richer. basically it sends unburned gases through the inlet. heres some points why it cant
   
   * A quick rise of the turbocharger's temperature (which jumps from ~800°C to the 1100°C+ region) whenever the system is activated
   * A huge stress on the exhaust manifold and pipes (mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km)
   *The turbo produces significant boost even at engine idle speeds
   *The explosions which occur in the exhaust tubes generate important flames which can, sometimes,  be seen at the end of the exhaust tube
   *Reduced engine brake
see thats why. Thats the reason why WRC cars change their engine after every rally. Anyway ALS is now old-school, a new method of keeping the turbine spinning is hitting the scene, Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), its much forgiving on mechanical parts than ALS. But hey u can never get tired of the ALS going off (what a sweet sound).
Anybody who says they have a real ALS system on their car is BS, just not possible, maybe ur engine will last for say 100-300km max.

sry for the long post

Good post, but you're misinformed on a few things. Many street cars use the retardation method of ALS, but WRC cars use a bypass to get clean air, fuel, and spark into the turbo up-pipe.

You're mixed up on EGR. It's not a anti-lag system, it's a method of improving emissions on street cars. A large number of cars have EGR systems. It's designed to make sure all the bad stuff is burned out of the exhaust. My old Escort had an EGR system.

Lancer Evo's up to version 6 had ALS built in, but disabled in the ECU. It's not too detrimental to the engine, compared to how it beats the crap out of the turbine. I know a guy who has the ALS enabled on his EVO III, but he only turns it on when he's autocrossing, or rallying.

Also, the system can be altered so no boost hit's the engine at idle.

Engine breaking has to do with compression ratio, not boost. When you lift off the throttle, the engine cuts fuel drastically, so even with all the air in the world, there isn't going to be enough combustion to prevent engine breaking. Besides, the idle control on most cars would stop the turbo from passing more air than needed.

[Just_J]

Well, i was just trying to say that they dont have to care about restrictions for normal cars in terms of pollution and noise etc. you said it yourself: rally live is loud, ALS would be illegal, gronholm was stopped for racing with illegal parts.
they race on public roads, yes, but remember: they are closed for traffic

i dont want to argue with you since i really dont know much about rally rules and can only talk about the land i live in, but there is no way a rally car could pass an emission test here or even the security check since it has no catalytic converter and stuff

WRC cars have to meet city regulations because they drive on public roads to and from the stages. They do have a 3 way catalytic converter, and the volume level is regulated. Of course since they aren't true road cars, the rules are bent a little.



Oh, and I don't recall Gronholm ever being stopped for illegal parts. He was stopped for driving with a seriously damaged wheel, and he (and many other WRC drivers) were stopped for speeding between the stages.

[Just_J]

Hellbent one thing - the rally cars are semi-automatic (at least in WRC which is the highest class of rally) they are...what that means is they have paddle shifters like you can find in newer "sports cars".  

But the cars still have a functioning clutch and manual shifter and in the event the tranny gets fubared mid stage they switch to full manual on the fly...its pretty cool the co-driver takes the handle off the e-brake and screws it in place for the shifter...bam standard transmission

Slight addition. The trannys are sequential manual, not standard. So when they do the conversion (what you mentioned is done in Fords, Citroen and Peugeot have a little stick), they push up and down on the stick to shift. The only exception to this is the Impreza. Come to think of it, I'm not sure it has a manual backup, I've never heard of the tranny hydrolics failing.

I wouldn't call them semi-automatic.

[Elchfaenger]

WRC cars have to meet city regulations because they drive on public roads to and from the stages. They do have a 3 way catalytic converter, and the volume level is regulated. Of course since they aren't true road cars, the rules are bent a little.

They do? Thats really hard to believe, even if i dont know the equipment of a rally car. Wouldnt such a cat get extremly hot? I mean even a normal one reaches easily 300+°C. And more important: A cat dies immediatly when it comes in contact with unburned fuel. And this happens on a rally car, or not?

[Just_J]

They do? Thats really hard to believe, even if i dont know the equipment of a rally car. Wouldnt such a cat get extremly hot? I mean even a normal one reaches easily 300+°C. And more important: A cat dies immediatly when it comes in contact with unburned fuel. And this happens on a rally car, or not?

The cat is integrated into the silencer (muffler).

They don't die immediatly when they encounter raw fuel, it takes time.

[Just_J]

You can see the red glow in the tail pipe, that's from the cat.

[Elchfaenger]

That is no fog light? well, i guess everything is a bit more extreme in rally sports
btw: great pictures!

[Just_J]

Imagine driving down the road, and you see this.

[CooBlueDAB]

Honestly.... If I saw that cruising down that slow street... I would probably run out and hump its fender...

I know the Evo just edges out the STI in stock performance tests... but Subaru is just too sexy for me...

[Supra_Saiyan]

Imagine driving down the road, and you see this.

I saw that in the rally of canberra last year sometime (australia)

so many rally cars gathered near the city centre.