Poll

Do you want L-E (& D-B?) to sub Tsubasa S3 despite the fact we might not finish it?

Yes Tofu, please please come back and translate Tsubasa S3, we'll still love you if you vanish mid season
14 (56%)
No thanks, I'll stick with other groups who I know will finish the job for sure.
11 (44%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)  (Read 23233 times)

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Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2007, 02:22:38 am »
Perhaps; it is a fact that you have no true obligation to the fans who download your releases, but on the other hand, it is for these fans that you do what you do. If you have no true intention to sub the shows Tofu has left you with, then make their status clear towards the fans who patiently wait for them. That is atleast a kind of moral obligation you should acknowledge, right? Just drop those projects, so other groups can finish them. You could even help such a group by providing any materials you may have acquired, such as scripts or raws.

I'm fine with the route you're taking, but take the accompanying responsability by not keeping your fans in the dark. If you're just keeping their status as stalled in the wait for Tofu, I suggest you drop them anyway, after which you can always re-pick them if he should return.

I also wanted to comment on the Trapp Family Story, however. This is a title the current members of Live-eviL picked up, but also has not been seeing much action. Can you not agree with me that it would be better to first get your act straight on a show like that, instead of beginning another new title?

Just because Tofusensei has not shown up lately it doesn't mean end of project or etermal stalling. IF he does not want to admit on giving up/quitting a project, the rest of L-E has no rights to declare them dropped as well. And it does not mean Tofusensei would NEVER be replaced. For example, I am working in place of Tofu in Creamy Mami now. Different projects require Tofu to different extent and in different ways so we cannot tell you exactly where is the problem. Of-course, we have no such obligation either. If Tofusensei admits to giving up on a project, provided we can replace him, we will. If we cannot, we will drop it. Simple as that.

You must realize for a big group such as Live-eviL with over 20ish staff members, it's not always possible to work in the same page since it's unlikely all staff will be available during the same time period. We have our lives and very complicated lives indeed. A project normally has at least 4-6 people working on it and the disappearance/procrastination of any staff member will delay the release of an episode and we cannot do anything about it unless the staff calls for a permanent/temporary replacement of him. We respect our staff and we respect their roles.

Other groups? What other groups are you talking about? Name me other groups subbing the classics we do with a slower than average release rate. Plus if we did have those resources you're talking about, we'd sub them ourselves. You must realize subbing classics isn't exactly as easy as subbing any new season show. You need a definite raw source and missing raw providers have been issues in the past. I repeat, if Tofusensei is not motivated to get his job done regarding those series, we cannot do anything about it unless he admits to quitting.

Our moral values tell us this:
1) Respect fellow staff and their lives;
2) Do not drop something which only you're subbing; be optimistic and keep hoping the project will see daylight unless it is confirmed it won't;
3) Sub any show the staff are interested provided all required positions can be filled; even if it will be licensed very soon, go ahead.
4) Respect licensors and their decision to bring the anime to the western world by licensing it.
5) Do not repeat a Tofu (or a situation where a particular staff member has such a role in a project that s/he cannot be easily replaced).

There.

Now I have to sleep, it's past 7 AM here and I am tired.

-Tsubasa
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
22:03 Mamo-chan: :O
22:06 Tsubie-chan: kaawaii

Offline bobby6

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2007, 05:50:44 am »
Perhaps; it is a fact that you have no true obligation to the fans who download your releases, but on the other hand, it is for these fans that you do what you do. If you have no true intention to sub the shows Tofu has left you with, then make their status clear towards the fans who patiently wait for them. That is atleast a kind of moral obligation you should acknowledge, right? Just drop those projects, so other groups can finish them. You could even help such a group by providing any materials you may have acquired, such as scripts or raws.

I'm fine with the route you're taking, but take the accompanying responsability by not keeping your fans in the dark. If you're just keeping their status as stalled in the wait for Tofu, I suggest you drop them anyway, after which you can always re-pick them if he should return.

I also wanted to comment on the Trapp Family Story, however. This is a title the current members of Live-eviL picked up, but also has not been seeing much action. Can you not agree with me that it would be better to first get your act straight on a show like that, instead of beginning another new title?

I would say, in some cases, a lack of resources IS an issue. First of all because sometimes, for shows that were started by retired or "MIA" staff members, some of the vital resources to continue subbing the show at a decent pace, or even any pace at all, dissapeared with the staff.

For instance, in the case of Ask Dr. Rin, the owner of the raws quit fansubbing, leaving us with no raws. And the fact that the show wasn't continuing was not for any lack of enthusiasm on our part, but because if you don't have the raws, quite frankly you can't sub the series. It was only through the generosity of one of our fans that we were able to obtain new raws and get the project started again.

In some cases, the original staff that starts a show, retires, and the newer members are not really interested in the show and never were. Is it fair to ask people who never cared one bit about a series, and who fansub on a VOLUNTEER basis to work on something which they find incredibly boring or distasteful just so they can satisfy you? If we were getting paid, its one thing, but when its for fun, why should anyone be forced to work on something they dislike?

In many cases though, its a mixture. Some of the staff on the original show retire, or some of the resources dry up, and because we realize that there are fans for these series, and because we DO care, we say they are stalled in the hope that we will find the staff or resources we need to continue subbing. And where might these resources come from you ask? Well, usually from fans of the series who care enough about seeing it get done to actually volunteer their own time or resources to help. Thats why I joined Live-eviL in fact. So instead of complaining that your favorite show isn't being subbed or not releasing very fast, instead ask yourself how YOU can help US out so we can do it better. If you have no interest in helping in any way, or taking the time to learn how then DO NOT complain here. We're not interested.

If on the other hand, you really do care about helping, and not just useless griping, please DO contact the project manager of your favorite series.

In conclusion, help is appreciated, but useless whining is not.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 05:55:43 am by bobby6 »
"<YaoiBoy> hi guys
<YaoiBoy> nice job getting DN out
<Blue_Mage> I think I might be addicted to the ending song...
<Blue_Mage> It's so pretty."
ROFL ;D

Offline Michael

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 06:18:36 am »
As much as I love L-E... especially the the Ladies of L-E and bastard, mamo, yaoi, innex, dead, plastic, willow (forget it, I'll end up listing everyone), I really would hate to see it dropped or be stalled all because of a missing TL whom from the start everyone was aware may jeopardize the project's life.

To me, such an attitude shows indecisiveness and a lack of resolve and commitment.  In my opinion, unless Tofu can say he will stay on for the entirety of the project or at least be 90% sure he can... I vote don't bother.

This is just my opinion.  I personally don't take on work, projects, task, etc. unless I know or at least am mostly sure that I complete them.  It's just irresponsible in my eyes to do otherwise.

Also, taking on the project probably requires a lot of discussion amongst the staff to evaluate whether it is viable resources-wise.  If taking on the project jeopardizes the productivity of your other projects or stretches the group's resources thin, then I would vote nay.  According to your post, it suggests that this may be the case.... but I'm not well-versed in the internal affairs of L-E so I can't be completely positive.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:30:46 am by Michael »

Offline bobby6

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 06:52:13 am »
As much as I love L-E... especially the the Ladies of L-E and bastard, mamo, yaoi, innex, dead, plastic, willow (forget it, I'll end up listing everyone), I really would hate to see it dropped or be stalled all because of a missing TL whom from the start everyone was aware may jeopardize the project's life.

To me, such an attitude shows indecisiveness and a lack of resolve and commitment.  In my opinion, unless Tofu can say he will stay on for the entirety of the project or at least be 90% sure he can... I vote don't bother.

This is just my opinion.  I personally don't take on work, projects, task, etc. unless I know or at least am mostly sure that I complete them.  It's just irresponsible in my eyes to do otherwise.

Also, taking on the project probably requires a lot of discussion amongst the staff to evaluate whether it is viable resources-wise.  If taking on the project jeopardizes the productivity of your other projects or stretches the group's resources thin, then I would vote nay.  According to your post, it suggests that this may be the case.... but I'm not well-versed in the internal affairs of L-E so I can't be completely positive.

Well, as far as resources stretched too thin, thats not completely accurate. Its more like old staff retires, new staff joins, and they start new projects which they are interested in.  As a result we get more projects, and some of our older ones don't move anymore due to the fact that the people who were initially interested in them or had the resources to work on them are gone. Its not that they couldn't be continued. Its just that there need to be the right resource available to continue them, and enough interested people to fill all the vital positions. and often the new staff would much rather work on something they themselves our interested than being left with the unfinished work of their predecessors.

As far as not starting if you can't finish, well, if its in regards to tofu, saying it to the rest of us is rather pointless. Only the individual themselves controls if they start something that they won't finish.

And as far as the stalling of many project being due to lack of motivation on the part of the current staff, that also is not necessarily true. For some of our projects, there was never a huge fanbase to begin with, so to find someone willing to fill a position for a project, or provide needed resource for that project, can be very difficult no matter how hard you try depending on project popularity.

Take gallery fake for instance, the reason it is not going is because there is a lack of a translartor "l33t" enough to work on it. And its not as though we have not requested that someone volunteer. Its just that nobody has. And we have no control over the issue until someone does.

Though at the same time, I agree that in some aspects a more proactive attitude would fix some of the issues with some of the projects. If there isn't someone who says "OK project X is installed... Why? "and then takes action to address those issues, then the project stays stalled. And as much as I also love this group, that is one of its weaknesses; a lot of passiveness and waiting for someone else to step up and do something.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:55:50 am by bobby6 »
"<YaoiBoy> hi guys
<YaoiBoy> nice job getting DN out
<Blue_Mage> I think I might be addicted to the ending song...
<Blue_Mage> It's so pretty."
ROFL ;D

Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 08:20:29 am »
Tofu used to say:
'When we pick up a project, we're in it for the long haul, barring any special circumstances. If you don't have patience, you should know by now not to follow our fansubs.'

While we do not think a slow release rate should keep people from following one of our projects at the same time we are saying if you will be following one of our shows, stick with us--- you're in it for a long haul as well. While the lack of motivation is not an issue with the remainder of Live-eviL, it was and is certainly an issue as far as Mr. Tofusensei is concerned. Although we have stopped waiting on him and gotten ahead with the projects we could by ourselves there are still projects like 3000 Leagues in Search of Mother which is still awaiting on his actions because he has roles currently only fillable by him.

Then there are projects like Ask Dr. Rin and The Trapp Family Story which have no relationship whatsoever with Tofusensei's disappearance and are being worked on by non-Tsubasa Chronicle staff. They are both being released slowly but since the staff is completely different will Tofu coming and doing a new season show change the release rate in anyway? I would have to say that's highly unlikely. If he has an obligation (and motivation) towards subbing S3, he'd be back solely for the sake of doing it and not bother about the other stuff or be bothered a little. He would not admit to not feel like working on it anymore. If he has no such obligation, he would not come back in the first place, barring special circumstances.

In L-E. when you're doing something old you either have to bitch around hard and get people to start working to get anything done or you need --- an aggressive initiation, commit yourself to working on all the positions that needs to be filled on the project or help the project by getting the resources it's lacking yourself.  It's not easy to do either and often comes with some negative consequences as well as positive ones. To work well together at the same page is not always the easiest task.

As for the other MIAs, it has been issue but unlike Tofu's case, we were able to cover for them somehow. So we did not repeat a Tofu, did we?

Warai Otoko, you apparently have a problem with us dropping shows since dropping shows, according to you, means we made a mistake of picking them up in the first place. Yet you are suggesting us to drop our classics as well. So what are you saying? That we don't commit ourselves to subbing anything all? We respect our staff and we do not want to put the pressure of 'you are in it means you gotta stick to it till the end' on our fellow team members. Nor can anyone make such a promise. We do it not as a chore but because we enjoy any committment should not make our fansubbing experience miserable. While there are people for whom committment to a series is huge and they do not want to let fans and other staff members down. This is not the case with everybody. People have lives and even if it were the case, it does not mean they can give up everything else and put their time and efforts to meeting fansubbing committments. If we did not care about our classics, we'd drop them after few months of stalling like we've done with Tsubasa and NANA but since they're classics and our fans are dependent on our releases for finishing up the shows, we're still trying hard to finish them and never considered dropping them. Doesn't this very act show that we are indeed committed to our shows and care about our fanbase?

Bottomline is, the argument that we are dropping shows and not proceeding with other, our more classic shows, because we are making the mistake of picking new season shows is not really that valid when applied to L-E as whole. This is something that you need to bring into Tofu's attention. But the result is most likely to be that he would either not do anything at all (no fansubbing that is) or ignore it and go ahead with whatever he wants to sub. You must realise the only 'new season' popular shows that we've had to drop recently due to the Tofusensei factor are Tsubasa Chronicle and NANA. Tofu was extremely busy those days and by the time he got back, too many episodes had aired for him to continue subbing and so he lost motivation. As far are other shows are concerned, they were dropped due to a license being declared, no question or argument on that. Our other shows are still being worked on where Mr. Tofusensei does not play a big role and we're committed to finishing them and working on a new season show has only made our love of fansubbing stronger and heighten our morale, given us new energy and unite us more as a group. As a matter of fact, subbing new shows have done more good to us than bad. Subbing new shows challenges us in other ways classics do not and what we learn from these challenges do help to make us better fansubbers for our older stuff--- stuff we do not fail due to working on a newer show with demonstrated priority. Thereby, please do not try to generalise L-E in the way you do and take up individual issues to the staff who are concerned and address them with it. As a team, we try our best.

-Tsubasa
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
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22:06 Tsubie-chan: kaawaii

Offline Warai Otoko

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 01:27:35 pm »
Well, I see I created quite the stirr around here. I'd like to first of all state that the intentions of my post were not nearly as malicious as you seem to interpret them, see it just as the ravings of a fan who has been waiting years for some of his favourite shows and sees the dropping of a project such as Death Note as a freeing up of resources available for these older titles. I am very glad with what I have read though, you sure seem to be a dedicated bunch of fansubbers.

Quote from: Tsubasa
Warai Otoko, you apparently have a problem with us dropping shows since dropping shows, according to you, means we made a mistake of picking them up in the first place. Yet you are suggesting us to drop our classics as well. So what are you saying? That we don't commit ourselves to subbing anything all?

That is not nearly what I was saying. I am not suggesting that you just drop everything that does not see any speed in its releases or which seems to be on hold for now; I suggest that it may be a good idea for L-E to carefully go about the possibilities for each project and ask yourselves if there is any relevant chance whatsoever that it may get back running. If you see no such chance now and the project has already been stalled for over a year, would it not be a better idea to give your fans some clarity and drop those projects? You definitely made your point about the fact that you fansubbers should sub what you like and I can surely sympathize with that; why voluntarily do a job you do not like?

Quote from: Tsubasa
Other groups? What other groups are you talking about? Name me other groups subbing the classics we do with a slower than average release rate.

I don't really think that I understand what you're trying to say here; do you want me to name other groups that sub other classic anime comparable to those that are seemingly stalled in your portfolio of shows?

Anyway, I was not trying to piss you guys of, but this had been bothering me for quite some time now. I hope you can atleast imagine it is somewhat annoying for a fan to see new projects come and go, while some of the older projects that he or she likes do not get the attention they deserve. I now know that the internals of Live-eviL have changed drastically over the years, but how was I supposed to know that these older shows are stalled because of that or because there is another single factor holding a project back? That is why I initially suggested you drop them, as this gives a clear sign to your fans. You may have no obligation towards them, but atleast carefully communicating the status of the projects they hold dear should be a possibility, right?

Quote from: bobby6
If on the other hand, you really do care about helping, and not just useless griping, please DO contact the project manager of your favorite series.

One final remark then; I believe this is a bit easy to say. You are the ones doing the fansubbing work because you yourselves chose to do it. Nobody forced you to do it, but with taking the task up on yourselves, at least some responsibility comes. I'd like to believe that I would surely have done something to help you or any other fansubgroup doing classics , but I just do not have the time for it. You guys surely know how much time is spent on the hobby and if I do something I like, I'd like to give it my all and not do a half-assed job, which I'd surely do if I were to help out a group with my current obligations. I do atleast contribute to anime fandom, however, as I nearly solely run a reviewsite, which takes up quite a bit of my free time. But I'd also like to have enough time to be able to atleast watch anime.

Offline Blue Mage

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 03:41:17 pm »
One final remark then; I believe this is a bit easy to say. You are the ones doing the fansubbing work because you yourselves chose to do it. Nobody forced you to do it, but with taking the task up on yourselves, at least some responsibility comes. I'd like to believe that I would surely have done something to help you or any other fansubgroup doing classics , but I just do not have the time for it. You guys surely know how much time is spent on the hobby and if I do something I like, I'd like to give it my all and not do a half-assed job, which I'd surely do if I were to help out a group with my current obligations. I do atleast contribute to anime fandom, however, as I nearly solely run a reviewsite, which takes up quite a bit of my free time. But I'd also like to have enough time to be able to atleast watch anime.

The only responsibility in fansubbing is what responsibility we allow there to be. This group has never had a policy of releasing within a given period. Shows take as long as they take. If we had made that sort of guarantee, you might have a point. You say that your review site takes up quite a bit of your free time. Personally (and this is the same for many of the others in L-E) fansubbing takes up all of my free time. I no longer have time to watch anime or do any of the other things I enjoy.

Base line:
A lot of leechers don't understand this simple concept. All the resources of the group are not shared equally between all the projects of the group. You'll find this is the same in virtually every other fansubbing group out there. Groups like to keep a team together on a project. If that project goes into a stall, it really is up to the team members to come up with the resource to replace whatever member has dropped out for whatever reason, whether from inside the group or outside doesn't really matter. You could easily get 3000 leagues to mother by getting ahold of legitimate raws (which are bloody expensive by the way) and finding a translator. Until someone is able to do that, that project will be stalled.
My mind is like a sieve. It retains all sorts of interesting bits and lets the important stuff flow straight through.

Offline Masakari

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 04:39:36 pm »
Why is this a bloody question?



Guys - really - Get onto some projects that aren't ill fated and on the chopping block for immanent licensing.

Either that, or become an underground fansbber - Cause floundering around picking up short lived projects is prolly as unsatisfactory to you as it is unsightly for others.

Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2007, 07:02:51 pm »
Popular shows = will get licensed.

-Tsubasa

Hmm that avatar isn't as cute as the ones we've seen before Masa.  :(

-Tsubasa
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
22:03 Mamo-chan: :O
22:06 Tsubie-chan: kaawaii

Offline PlasticYakuza

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 07:53:11 pm »
I had to vote "no". I don't want to see this have to be dropped, and with the disappointment and failure of the story in season 2, I rather see something else get done.
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Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 07:55:28 pm »
 :'( :'( :'(
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
22:03 Mamo-chan: :O
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Offline Masakari

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 10:45:50 pm »
There's plenty of stalled and halted projects. Why don't we worry about getting those done, hrm?



I still, as ever, wouldn't mind being an Ed/TL fixer for Dr. Rin. Why doesn't someone lead the charge to get that rolling again? Or is it not cool enough for ye who want to be trendy out there?


Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2007, 07:54:46 am »
Masa, talk to the Rin team then. It's a lot of people and as far as I know, they have their t/ls, problem is someone else...Drago perhaps? Anyways, I have no idea about the EXACT current status. Talk to bobby/Willow.

-Tsubasa
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
22:03 Mamo-chan: :O
22:06 Tsubie-chan: kaawaii

Offline beloculus

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2007, 08:22:41 am »
*drops in to the forums for the first time in MONTHS*

So, here's a revolutionary question - why does Tsubasa S3 == Tofu? I know of at least one translator who isn't Tofu who would be potentially interested in doing Tsubasa S3....now, if only I knew how to get in contact with her...oh wait! She's me! Wow...imagine that. XD

I guess I can't really cast a real vote in this poll, so here's my unreal vote - I vote for L-E to ask existing translators whose big series just got licensed before dragging up poor Tofu from the grave ^^;;

Offline Tsubasa

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Re: Should L-E(& D-B) sub Tsubasa S3 (Tofusensei wanted dead of alive ??????)
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2007, 08:26:55 am »
hahahaha :D

Apparently Tofu was doing everything from L-E in Tsubasa, not only translation. No other staff from L-E was working on it. So it came Tofu = Tsubasa Chronicle.

-Tsubasa
22:02 Mamo-chan: tsubie. if you were a doll. you'd be this: https://www.rinkya.com/new/en/auction-d138692432
22:03 Mamo-chan: :O
22:06 Tsubie-chan: kaawaii